Three Steps To Save Jobs

[Thinking Man's Idiot]

THREE STEPS TO SAVE JOBS
Nationalise to stop closures | 35 hour week with no pay cut | Build council houses

Awesome idea ... but

I hear what you are trying to say [nope not read the content of the URL yet] but funded by what exactly? The country is funded by debt now (post Thatcher) much as it was pre Thatcher although not to the same degree. Consumerism was fielded to and accepted by the masses .. what goes up will crash down .. I say let us suffer a little! We deserve it

[Thinking Man's Idiot]

A little? ..........."The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles....

I'd click on that link mate.

I'm a little confused *shrugs* .. after all it's all rather complex.

Your posts interest and intrigue me.

Nationalising Industry/Commerce is simply not THE solution. We own some Banks but I think we should own the Central Banks but that's another issue.

I read a little of the Communist Manifesto [frankly it's a little over my head .. maybe written in plain english would help *hint*] which seems to state that the 'bourgeoisie' are the root of all evil .. I'd hazard that human greed is the aggravating factor which is not limited to those 'with' or 'in' power (the bourgeoisie). It seems to me a fundamentally animal [human] trait to amass wealth to secure the future of offspring/family/extended family. I'm thinking of Squirrel's at the moment .. the peanut pitching thieves Personally I don't subscribe to this failing on principle yet ironically I'm guilty by virtue of the fact I work and I'm able to buy heating/food and a few luxuries yet many around the world have .. well .. sweet f*ck all.

So I guess my question is in a nutshell .. How exactly would "Nationalise to stop closures | 35 hour week with no pay cut | Build council houses" help us and how would that be funded?

I guess I'm a socialist. I believe in the re-distribution of wealth but I also believe that those that can work should earn their "benefits". No free lunch.

So many questions, so many ideas, so many answers .. solutions?

[Thinking Man's Idiot]

I don't belong to any political organisation. I'm just too crazy, and whatever sympathies I have, I wouldn't want people to associate me with an organisation as it would reflect badly upon them. I just represent 'the left' generally, including the labour left i.e. 'Old' Labour.

The Socialist Workers Party is a Trotskyist organisation, and claims to be the largest of the 'hard' left parties. Trotsky taught a tactic of 'transitional demands', which are demands that seem quite reasonable in the general debate, but they are demands that they know that the capitalist ruling class will not (cannot) deliver upon. 'Homes for all' would be such a demand. These demands are used to show capitalism and capitalists for what they are, showing that their profits cannot be sacrificed for the human good to the people who created those profits for them by their own surplus labour (i.e. labour above and beyond the labour needed to maintain the worker and his family and create the next generation of labour power).

Marx praises the bourgeoisie down to the ground. The Marxist concept of history sees history all as a progression of revolutions in the modes of production, and with these follow corresponding revolutions in society at large. Here is what is written in praise of the bourgeoisie;

"The bourgeoisie has disclosed how it came to pass that the brutal display of vigour in the Middle Ages, which reactionaries so much admire, found its fitting complement in the most slothful indolence. It has been the first to show what man’s activity can bring about. It has accomplished wonders far surpassing Egyptian pyramids, Roman aqueducts, and Gothic cathedrals; it has conducted expeditions that put in the shade all former Exoduses of nations and crusades."

On the £20 pond note you'll find Adam Smith's famous idea on the division of labour that has made possible such a great increase productivity in the last three centuries. You know, that it takes ten people to make a pin. But does it? There is infrastructure, transport, technicians , miners, engineers, designers, tool makers; under modern production the whole of society has played it's part in production. Imagine yourself on a desert island and you decide you need a pin..well first you'd have to prospect and find the iron ore and...well just run the whole process through your head. And how many man hours would you spend to end up with your pin? And, therefore how much value would you put on it. So, social labour has in our society reduced costs and so capital and wealth itself is a social product.

These are obviously just snippets, but Marx said socialism was "From each according to his ability, to each according to work done." and that communism was "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." Just think of the ant colony, soldiers, workers, nurseries, (some species even have 'farmers' growing fungus on leaf matter) and of course, the Queen- the producer of the next generation. All need each other, but have different roles and abilities- eg the soldiers jaws are so massive they are useless for eating and have to be fed mouth to mouth by the workers. All gets what they need. And such is the human tribe. In the tribe all have their own speciality and part in production and ritual and medicine but none is wealthier or poorer- they all need each other. There are no orphans, or lonely old people-this is the true family. The modern bourgeois family is a left over from feudal property relations of men in society, the property of women and minors in a patriarchal society. The family has a lot to answer for. !

In the summary of communist policies in the manifesto, you will see the demand for an equal liability for labour. So, you don't have 'professional doleys', but also (and as a great hypocrisy in our society) you don't have parasites living off the labour of the rest of society by the means of profit, interest, rent and dividends- all that surplus value that originates from the surplus labour of workers. Please, you must read capital (it ain't an easy ride at first but you get used to it's style. It's a masterpiece ).

There is an audio version of the Manifesto pasted below if that helps and the great subversive qualities of cartoons has been used superbly in this link here.

Bourgeois and Proletarians
II: Proletarians and Communists
III: Socialist and Communist Literature
IV: Position of the Communists in Relation to
the Various Existing Opposition Parties
Appendix: Prefaces to Various Language Editions
Download: Audio, Word, PDF, PRC (for PDA), Plain text, or HTML.


DE OMNIBUS DUBITANDUM - QUESTION EVERYTHING!

[Thinking Man's Idiot]

http://www.rinf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5925